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Full name[]
So, with the release of chapter 812, we have at least one translation of Sanji's family name. Now, apart from waiting to see what other versions we get, we really need to discuss how we're using it on his page. I'm in favour of putting it in his introductory paragraph, in a form such as "Sanji is revealed to be a member of the Vimblabblahblah Family", but not full on change his name to Sanji Vimblahblahblah.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:34, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
We renamed Law's article when his full name was revealed. Shouldn't we do the same thing here? Besty17Talk 13:38, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Once we get an accurate translation, change the name like we did for Law. However, we should just refer to him as "Sanji" everywhere else. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 13:44, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
How do you know whether it's Vinsmoke Sanji or Sanji Vinsmoke? You could say it's 95% likely that it's the former, but not 100%. And how do you know that he hasn't abandoned his family (and hence family name) like Sabo did? 104.238.45.80 13:45, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
It's going to be a pain in the balls to get bots to change the links if we change the page name. And I did deliberately not phrase it as Sanji Vimblahblahblah or Vimblahblahblah for that reason.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:47, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Let's wait for the mangastream version then Keekian (talk) 13:49, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
We're doing that anyway, lol. Once we have more than one bad translation we can ignore them both and get one of our translators to work it out. Then we can actually discuss what to do with the page.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:51, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
As Kaido said, if we can wait for Klobis or JOP or someone who is in an expert in Japanese to confirm the translation first, then sure. Keeikian, recently, mangastream has been making translation errors quite frequently. So it might not be wise to trust them. LelouchDiBritannia 13:52, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
I'm ok to move the page to the full name for consistency, no matter how ugly it would seem we don't just name pages with ones "we like". However I would wait to understand the circumstances of his family to be explained because it could be very well a case lik Cutty Flam where Sanjy said "screw that family ain't one of them". In that case I think it would be acceptable to leave it as "Sanji". leviathan_89 14:27, 14 January, 2016 (UTC)
@Keekian: In fact, we only use their scanlation because Mangapanda's works of art are pretty obvious.
Salad King I hate veggies. 14:34, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
It's definitely Vinsmoke (ヴィンスモーク, Vinsumōku). Oh and it's his family name, Capone says Vinsmoke Family and Charlotte Family. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:46, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Good work, but if it's all the same we're going to wait for a translator we know to doublecheck this.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 14:48, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough. ^_^ • Seelentau 愛 議 14:51, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Changing the links isn't entirely necessary if we move the page. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 15:14, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Personally, I'd recommend simply waiting for the next chapter to be doubly sure. But in any case, nobody seems to be listening to the requests not to edit that into the page; might I recommend locking it until this discussion finishes? The Dreamer (talk) 15:57, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Recommend all you want, the only reason it isn't is because we haven't had an admin online yet to deal with it.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 16:04, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
I've semi-protected editing and fully-protected moving. leviathan_89 16:33, 14 January, 2016 (UTC)
Jopie: "It's probably Vinsmoke. (ヴィンスモーク)" If we're agreeing to move it to his full name (which is most likely Vinsmoke Sanji) I think we have enough evidence. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 16:52, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Ok, we have a name. Now to discuss what we're putting it as.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:08, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Hold off on adding anything until we know more. We don't know if this is another Cutty Flam case where Sanji threw away his family name, or a case similar to Law's where he chose to conceal it.DancePowderer Talk 18:01, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
We'll have to move it for consistency. If we don't then we can just put it in the introduction and infobox. Either way it's best to wait for more information. Also a bot is most definitely not needed if the name is changed. Redirects exist for a reason. SeaTerror (talk) 19:13, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
(Effing edit conflict) We'd be doing Riku Viola if we go for Vinsomke Sanji. So unless we're ready to take that plunge (again), then Sanji stays as Sanji for now. Yata Talk to me 19:16, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that we can't change Sanji's name until he's actually called Vinsmoke Sanji by a character. Ryu-Chan•|•Talk 19:21, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
Then we have to move Law's page back to just Trafalgar Law, Yata. SeaTerror (talk) 19:41, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
But Law did refer to himself as Trafalgar D. Water Law once. Sanji just needs something similar to happen, just once. KingCannon (talk) 19:53, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
I kind of take back what I said earlier. If we move Sanji to "Vinsmoke Sanji" cause he's part of the Vinsmoke Family then we have to move Viola to Riku Viola and Pudding to Charlotte Pudding. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 20:15, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
I'm with Ryu on this. We should wait to hear his full name before we make any mention of "Vinsmoke Sanji" or "Sanji Vinsmoke". We have a chapter next week, right? Let's not rush it.
Regarding the eventual rename, we don't have to change the links. We had Forum:Eliminating the Pipe Linking Rule for a reason, guys. JustSomeDude... Talk | 20:21, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
I don't think there's ever been a single character in One Piece that has the last name follow the first. It's always [Last name] [First name] which would make him Vinsmoke Sanji --Mandon (talk) 01:26, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
Kelly Funk and Bobby Funk. Last name follows first. In any case, I support holding off on edits to Sanji's full name at least until next week. As others have said, we don't know if this is a case of discarding a name or concealing it. MizuakiYume (talk) 01:35, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
Neither of those scenarios would be relevant. Remember that we renamed Trafalgar Law's page to Trafalgar D. Water Law despite the fact that he both discarded and concealed that name. --Mandon (talk) 02:23, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
Except that he never discarded or actively concealed his middle name and D. initial - he didn't know the significance of D. as a child and willingly spoke his full name to Baby 5 and Buffalo, and as an adult freely revealed the fact that he had D. in his name to both Doflamingo and Sengoku. Different scenario here.--Xilinoc (talk) 02:54, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
I think it is closer to the situation with Sabo where he didn't want anything to do with his family. He acted in a manner that his family tried to correct which he wasn't having. The cruise ship being attacked by pirates was his unintentional escape. There is also the possibility that he had thought they had all died due to the storm and that Zeff believed that the ship had sank. At that moment he decided to live life as a normal person instead of a noble.AryaVega (talk) 03:07, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
I say we wait. It will probably be only a few weeks at most until we get a correct, full name. Until then, anything we do (changing the page name or Sanji's name in the first sentence of the article) would be speculatory and jumping the gun. In past experiences, that kind of action has made us look bad as a community. Montblanc Noland :: Talk 05:33, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
Alright, seems like we're in agreement on at least one thing: Wait. So let's wait until we get more to discuss this further. JustSomeDude... Talk | 18:47, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
In Mangastream's 813 release, Brook said "Vinsmoke? So that's Sanji's last name?" and in panda he said "Sanji's a Vinsmoke?" Dunno if that's enough evidence for anything, but I thought I'd leave it here. If a translator can translate what he said, that'd be great too. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 22:14, January 21, 2016 (UTC)
No one's disputing that's his name, we're just holding off until we know more about Sanji's situation. We don't know if he's like Cutty Flam and threw away his name or if it's like a Trafalgar D. Water Law where he chose to keep his name hidden.DancePowderer Talk 22:17, January 21, 2016 (UTC)
Chapter 826 & 837[]
Alright, now it appears that we have naming conventions for two members of the Vinsmoke family. I believe that the time for renaming has come. It's just a question of if mangastream did the classic localization thing and made it "Yonji Vinsmoke" instead of "Vinsmoke Yonji". JustSomeDude... Talk | 17:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
Easy solution, wait for the raw.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:03, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
I'm still against renaming because Sanji's never been referred to as Vinsmoke Sanji - I would prefer to get his full name, and see whether or not he has cast it aside. We don't have Riku Viola or Riku Rebecca, and it would seem a bit risky to give a kind of speculatory name to one of our biggest pages Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:40, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
I thought the whole point of waiting was to find out about the circumstances he left his family and we still don't know them. In particular, we have to understand if it's a "Franky case", where he casted out his name, or a "Law case", where he simply hid it. The latter is starting to become the most likely scenario, but still, if we are willingly to make that assumption then shouldn't have we renamed it already? leviathan_89 19:44, 19 May, 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Levi, that was the reason we didn't do it earlier. Aurora[1] | Yes? 21:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
Also, shoud we add in his intro page that he is a prince or at least a former prince since it was said that the Vinsmokes are still considered royalty, or do yall prefer to wait to hear more about his situation? Ddog892 (talk) 00:50, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
We'll wait it out some more then. JustSomeDude... Talk | 14:32, May 31, 2016 (UTC)
Cracker called him "Vinsmoke Sanji". Chapter 837 p. 15. Rhavkin (talk) 11:28, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
He called him like that only because he is the link of the union of Charlotte Family and Vinsmoe Family. If Sanji discarded his name then i donth think Cracker's words count much. Dinosel (talk) 11:32, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
All I know is that some people said in this discussion that we should wait until someone called him by that name, and now someone did. Beside, a couple of chapters ago Sanji said he agreed to go with Bege because he hoped his family changed, so he does consider himself part of the Vinsmoke Family but he's just not happy about it. Rhavkin (talk) 13:03, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
I don't think he really considers himself a part of the family, he just acknowledges that they're blood. Anyway, I think it should stay as just Sanji until he himself acknowledges "Vinsmoke" as his last name. I mean, It would make sense if we changed it to "Vinsmoke Sanji", but the problem is that we don't want to update ALL the pages with his name on it only to have to change it back if he confirms that's he's discarded it later. Mhj0808 (talk) 14:45, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
What you think is irrelevant and speculation. Sanji has called them his family. We know his name is Vinsmoke Sanji. Waiting for an opportunity for him to call HIMSELF Vinsmoke Sanji is kind of unreasonable. I mean honestly, do you really expect that to ever happen? We call Trafalgar Law "Trafalgar D. Water Law" even though there's no actual proof he still considers that to be his name. (actually, there's more evidence that he doesn't.) This is no different. Change the name. --Mandon (talk) 17:06, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
Let's move Franky to Cutty Flam too then. SeaTerror (talk) 17:13, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
Mhj hit the nail on the head. Awaikage Talk 17:20, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
It was decided in this discussion earlier that if someone called him Vinsmoke Sanji then we would rename the page. Cracker did so in 837. Why backtrack now, just because you don't want to update pages with his name on it? We did the same thing with renaming the Dressrosa Saga. MavikVCT (talk) 23:47, August 25, 2016 (UTC)
Spandam called Franky Cutty Flam too. Also don't lie. The other discussion said we wait until we got further information. SeaTerror (talk) 00:05, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
The thing about Law saying "Trafalgar D. Water Law" is that he never said he didn't go by that name Meshack (talk) 01:29, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Well you're just bold-faced lying Mandon, because Law said himself what his full name was- he never "discarded" his name at all, and he clarified that he was simply hiding it; so of course we immediately changed his name. Hell, Law told Doflamingo to his face that "I am a D" in present day, so you're the one who's argument is irrelevant. Franky also accepted his new name and calls himself that. But Sanji is different. What we DO KNOW is that he's disowned his family and wants nothing to do with them, while conversely, we DON'T know if he still considers "Vinsmoke" to be a part of his name. At this point, the only people that call him "Vinsmoke Sanji" is the Charlotte family because, presumably, they're unaware of how severed Sanji's relationship with his family is.Mhj0808 (talk) 01:50, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
And let me clarify, I'm not against renaming the page, I'm just more for keeping it as "Sanji". Besides, I don't have 300 edits under my belt so I can't vote anyway, I'm just stating my case for the higher ups to listen to. Mhj0808 (talk) 01:55, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
I would definitely vote Vinsmoke Sanji if Sanji says he's a Vinsmoke Meshack (talk) 02:53, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, my memory was a bit fuzzy Mhj. I wasn't lying. In any case, I think it's appropriate to call him Vinsmoke Sanji at this point. If we start withholding character's full names until they outright declare themselves by their full names, then that same framework could be feasibly applied to many other characters besides Sanji.
The precedent people seem to be going with is Franky, however in Sanji's case - it's a very different situation. He isn't using a new name - he simply withholded his surname. Now we know what his surname is, so we should add it. He might never outright call himself a Vinsmoke. --Mandon (talk) 03:37, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
The way Sanji has bashed his family, I doubt he considers himself part of it. Adding Vinsmoke for the sake of formalities would be silly. If Sanji doesn't want to go by Vinsmoke, then we don't put him as such. Ace threw away Gol, and Sanji threw away Vinsmoke.DancePowderer Talk 05:16, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Ace up until this point. It's much more comparable to that than Franky or Law. Both Ace and Sanji despised their blood ties and discarded their father's name. If Sengoku had called him "Gol D. Ace" would it really have warranted moving his page? A taunting antagonist doesn't really count as a source. Ryu-Chan•|•Talk 12:00, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Why should a characters opinion on their family way in on what we should call this article? Or should we remove the D in Monkey D Luffy since he's shown no opinion or interest in it? It made sense to not change Ace and Franky's articles since it would make it hard on new OP readers looking for that content, but there's no downside to changing this article to it's correct title as with Law's. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 12:30, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Do we have a copy of the raw for this? If it's Vinsmoke Sanji or Sanji Vinsmoke could be entirely how MS have translated it here. Let's get one of our translators to check it.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 12:47, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
What you doubt is irrelevant, DP. Sanji has dismissed his family, not his name. The problem with comparing this situation to Ace, which goes back to what I said about Franky - is that Ace CHANGED his name. If we had never, ever heard his full name before, and Sengoku called him Gol D. Ace, I'd recommend we change the name of the article then too.
The issue I have with deciding this based on Sanji calling himself Vinsmoke is that it might never happen. Until Sanji outright condemns the name or gives someone crap for calling him Vinsmoke, we should rename the article - because until proven otherwise, that's his given name. --Mandon (talk) 16:37, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Wasn't it said in an SBS section years ago that Nami, Usopp, and Sanji don't have surnames? That would be a source for Sanji having discarded Vinsmoke. Ryu-Chan•|•Talk 17:44, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Someone mentioned Luffy and Luffy is not a good comparison for any of this. Luffy always, since the very beginning, called himself Monkey D. Luffy. Luffy never disregarded his name and he doesn't know his father nor mother. Someone also mentioned Ace and that's a better example. Ace did not like his name Gol D. because of his father so he used his mother's name. We should wait until Sanji accepts Vinsmoke as his name Meshack (talk) 17:52, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Sanji condemns his family, and therefore the name, since that's the thing that ties them together. Name and family are synonymous here. Why keep one and throw away the other? If Sanji doesn't want to go by Vinsmoke, then we don't call him Vinsmoke Sanji. Plain and simple.DancePowderer Talk 18:59, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Doflamingo didn't throw away his family name and you can't say he didn't hate his family. Even Rosinante didn't throw away his name despite what Doffy changed it into. Rhavkin (talk) 19:16, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Ace was born as "Gol D. Ace", but like Sanji, he hated the family he gained the surname from and changed it, and was thus introduced in the beginning as "Portgas D. Ace". While we don't have clear evidence that Sanji cast aside his name, he was introduced and has only been referred to until this chapter as just Sanji. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:22, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Law was introduced (twice) simply as Trafalgar Law (Chapter 498 and 659) and Momonosuke was introduced (again, twice) without his family name (Chapter 685 and 696).
Now, there seem to be several past similarities between sanji and other characters:
- Franky: changed his name (completely) to keep a secret.
- Ace: changed his name to keep a secret.
- Sabo: hid is name out of shame.
- Momonosuke: hid his name to keep a secret.
- Law: hid his name to keep a secret.
- sevral secret identities: Baroque Works agents, Sogeking, Lucy(s), Ricky, toys...
Sanji, on the other hand, kept his family number+ji motifs, nonchalantly revealed his from north blue, basically freaked out when he couldn't be recognized by his bounty poster, and changed his hair style after the timeskip to be like the rest of his family. Rhavkin (talk) 21:33, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
Vinsmoke might be his birth name, but it's certainly not the name he likes to be referred to by. Sticking to just Sanji will be best User:Roranoa Drake II/Sig1 21:39, August 26, 2016 (UTC)
I agree, if he changed his name and refused to be referred by his old, full name, then he is just Sanji for now. Yata Talk to me 00:21, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
Wait, kind of off topic, but Sabo hid his name? I can only think of Sabo as the only name he's ever used. Well, except Lucy...
Anyway, this looks split fairly evenly. This is either going to take a poll or an executive policy from our admins. Ryu-Chan•|•Talk 03:34, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
Rhavkin, the evidence you're posing is circumstantial at best. A given name doesn't tell anything. A lot of people are from the North Blue. He freaked out because the poster looked nothing like him. And his hair style change was just part of his redesign. If you read the actual dialogue between Sanji and his family, you'll find that Sanji wants nothing to do with his family whatsoever. I honestly can't believe this is still being argued. Sanji has said repeatedly that he wants nothing to do with his family (and by extension his name) and is disgusted by them. He threw his name away to start a new life. Family and name are one and the same here. Read any of Sanji's lines from the last few chapters he's been in and you'll see this whole argument is a colossal waste of time.DancePowderer Talk 05:05, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
The arguments towards keeping Sanji's article as is are conjecture based, at best. What matters here is whether or not Sanji has DISCARDED Vinsmoke as his given name, and no matter what you may say about how he feels about his family - there's no empirical evidence to suggest that he has. He may not call HIMSELF Vinsmoke Sanji, but until you have someone call him that to his face and have him freak out, or have him outright say, "That name is nothing to me now." or something along those lines, then there's absolutely no reason not to change the name of the article. What do Ace, Law, Franky and Momonosuke all have in common? They WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY tp change their names / withheld their names. We know they did - we had confirmation they did. We got no such confirmation with Sanji. --Mandon (talk) 05:44, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
And you're saying that because nothing was said outright that your argument holds water? Now who's being conjectural? The fact that he has acted the way he has proves he does not consider himself part of the family, name included. In Japanese culture, you don't denounce your family and keep your name. It goes out with the family. Name and family are one and the same in this case, you can't try to separate them. Sanji's behaviors and actions more than prove he wants nothing to do with his family or his name.DancePowderer Talk 06:16, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
Bege and Brook referred to him as a Vinsmoke and he didn't reject the fact, and he had hope that they would change their way. Seem more like anger then hate. Rhavkin (talk) 07:23, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
I think you guys are tying "changing the name" with the state of mind of a character. It's not. Even after all this time, no matter how bad the relationship between Sanji and his family might be, until he says "don't call me vinsmoke", which is surprising he did not say it once yet, I don't think it matters anyway. I can run off my family and don't recognize it as my own anymore, but it won't be the same as discarding my name. I could very well decide to found my own family to give a new meaning to my name. About the name we should act as a government office: if Sanji would go to a government office and explained his situation, they would reply "you are registered as Sanji Vinsmoke in our database, if you want to change your name go to this office and present your request". That's should be our mindset as well. Cold bureaucracy. leviathan_89 10:11, 27 August, 2016 (UTC)
While I agree with 90% of what you said, Levi - this is still One Piece.. I don't think government data should matter all that much to us in the context of the series. Sanji is still a pirate - if he were to denounce his name, he shouldn't be called it in the article. By your logic we'd need to rename Ace and Franky to Gol D. Ace and Cutty Flam.
That said, Sanji has not denounced his name, and has been given plenty of opportunity too. That also being said, we're getting nowhere arguing about it - so let's just do a poll and settle it once and for all. --Mandon (talk) 16:34, August 27, 2016 (UTC)
I think a poll is redundant. Up til May the discussion was held because A. nobody referred to him as "Vinsmoke Sanji", and B. we don't know the reason he left the family. Both have been answered A. Chapter 837; and B. Chapter 833.
Now people are saying "he said he isn't part of the family" and as Mandon said "Sanji has not denounced his name, and has been given plenty of opportunity too". It seems to me that the only objection left is "but we didn't do it for (enter character name here)" and for me it is not a valid argument. Rhavkin (talk) 14:54, August 29, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah but the consensus is still divided. If there were a clear majority, that would be grounds to change it, but there isn't. We need a poll. --Mandon (talk) 15:48, August 29, 2016 (UTC)
I simply do not have the time to make a poll for this like you requested, Mandon. However, I think a poll will give people a false sense of security and cause people to argue if we do (or do not!) get more evidence in the future. Any decision that comes from a poll will seem more binding and cause people to argue that "we already decided in the poll!" if we need to discuss this again in the future. The better idea is to pick one of the names through discussion and re-discuss this issue at the end of the arc, or as more is heard on it. As for my opinion on the issue, I'm in 100% agreement with Levi. The only thing we know is that Sanji dislikes his family, and that is in no way a confirmation that he has discarded his name. The truly encyclopedic option is to rename to Vinsmoke Sanji. If we cannot claim on the article that Sanji has discarded his family name because it is speculation, then we cannot use that as our primary reason to leave the current pagename.
We should rename it, but for the love of god not redo any redirects or pipe links because there is a chance in the future that Sanji will disown his name, but that has yet to be shown in any capacity as of yet. JustSomeDude... Talk | 17:22, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Why can't you people understand that family and name are the same thing here and that renaming anything will be a colossal waste of time? Telling his family to stick it sideways is the same as rejecting his name, because family=name. Look at his freaking actions and what he said on the ship. That should tell you that naming this page is a complete mistake.DancePowderer Talk 17:26, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Sanji said to Reiju "I made it crystal clear that I wanted nothing to do with any of you. We're no longer family." That means he severed all ties of association. Nothing to do with any of you would include his name. He threw away everything when he left. How is this so hard to see?DancePowderer Talk 17:47, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Oh, here's another that people conveniently missed. "Get out of my sight old man. I refuse to be affiliated with you in any way." Even Judge refuses to acknowledge him as his own son. "I still and never will see a fool like you as a son of mine... not in the slightest." Now we have disownership from both sides. Any more holes you want me to poke in this failure of an argument?DancePowderer Talk 17:58, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
I'm with DP here. Just keep it as Sanji, we've noted countless time he is a Vinsmoke in the article and there's certainly going to be things happening in this arc regarding the situation. Keeping it as Sanji really doesn't hurt much. Aurora[1] | Yes? 18:04, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
I don't really get that logic. The surname is the most simple proof of a blood tie, not of a "good relationship". That's all. No matterr how they hate each other, it doesn't change the fact that's his family. Then answer this: how can Judge use Sanji for the marriage if he officially disown him? He cannot. All the bad blood between the two is just that. A sentiment. Because if it's turned into facts than this marriage would have no meaning.
Also in this chapter Cracker called Sanji "Vinsmoke Sanji", therefore between this, the invite and the fact that his family is using sanji for the marriage pretty much proves that everybody else recognize him as "Vinsmoke Sanji". leviathan_89 18:07, 1 September, 2016 (UTC)
But the only thing that matters is whether or not Sanji recognizes himself as a Vinsmoke, which he clearly doesn't.DancePowderer Talk 18:09, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
He doesn't recognise himself as part of his known immediate family. He's said nothing about his family as a whole and for all we know he may have the best relationship with his mother. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 19:25, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
There's no point in waiting for the end of the arc. Currently he hate his family but is still consider part of them and that is how their relationship will stay. If this arc gonna end with "I love you dad" "I love you too son" then including the Vinsmokes in this arc is completely pointless. As i've been told many times, this wiki works with facts:
- FACT: Sanji was born a Vinsmoke.
- FACT: Both Linlin and Judge consider him a family member per their agreement.
- FACT: He came to Whole Cake Island in hopes that his family change (he has hopes for his family).
- FACT: he had countless opportunities to say to Big Mom's crew "I'm not a Vinsmoke anymore".
On the other hand:
- Sanji discarded his family name: speculation.
Sarutobi2, Luffy didn't say nothing about Ace or Sabo until they were introduced.
Now as for DancePowder arguments (and please let's not turn what I'm about to say as another discussion about unrelated characters), One Piece have shown many times that you can be a family without sharing a name (Straw Hats, Nami, Nojiko and Bell-mère, Chopper, Hiluluk, and Kureha, Franky Family, Whitebeard Pirates, Ace, Sabo and Luffy, Donquixote Pirates...), that you can share a name without acting like a family (Chopper's herd, Frnky's father, Robin's family, Baby 5, Donquixote Family...) and that you can bitter fight and major disagreements and still be a family (Usopp vs. Luffy, the Monkey D. family, Sabo's family, Donquixote Family...). In retrospect the Donquixote Family/Pirates are perfect example for all of that so if we do want to take another character as a reference Doflamingo family tree(s) would be a fine match. Rhavkin (talk) 19:39, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
All of the examples you gave are for families without blood ties or last names (and I know you mean the pirate organization and not the noble family), Robin being the exception. Sarutobi, family is all or nothing in this case, it's pointless to nitpick. It's not about what others consider him as, it's about what Sanji considers himself. I don't understand why people think family and name are separate here, when they are clearly not.DancePowderer Talk 20:18, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Chopper's herd banished and attacked him, Franky father was a pirate who abandoned him on Water 7, Baby 5's mother abandoned her in the woods, and I did meant the noble family whose son killed his father and brother. Rhavkin (talk) 20:38, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we have a comparable example in One Piece. The closest one is Ace, which was born, as her mother stated, "Gol D. Ace". However the difference between him and Sanji is that he himself stated he changed his name to "Portgas D. Ace". If it wasn't for that, and was simply known as "Ace", I would rename it "Gol D. Ace" with him being the usual kid ranting about his father. leviathan_89 21:00, 1 September, 2016 (UTC)
Please don't bring Ace up again. As I said in the start of the paragraph, those example are for DancePowder arguments about family equivalent to a name, not the discussion about Sanji w/o family name. Rhavkin (talk) 21:11, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
And like I said we're talking about blood tie families with names here.DancePowderer Talk 21:13, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Can we please stop it? Sanji's situation is like nothing we've seen before so comparing him to characters with slightly similar situations isn't really helping. Rhavkin (talk) 21:26, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Fact is, Sanji has always been introduced to us as just Sanji, without the surnamne, and it's never used in the character gallery of the collected volumes or in merchandise. (I know the same goes for Law, but I don't think his page should necessarily have been renamed either.) But claiming the only reason he only goes by "Sanji" is that the surname is a spoiler doesn't hold water. Sanji HATES the Vinsmokes with a passion, and us just recently having found out they're his blood family doesn't change that. The arc is about Sanji being uncomfortably confronted with his past and Luffy trying to save him so he can go back to being with his real family, the one he created for himself. Moreover, Judge is the one who ordered his bounty raise and change to "Only Alive". The fact that he didn't ask them to add "Vinsmoke" proves that he, like Sanji, doesn't want any outright association between them. Judge only agreed to let Sanji marry Big Mom's daughter because he was the only blood son that didn't matter to him. Cracker isn't aware of this specific background, though, so assuming Sanji has a positive attitude to the marriage and goes by the surname Vinsmoke is fairly logical from his HIGHLY LIMITED point of view. Calling Sanji "Vinsmoke" is lumping him together with a royal murderer family which he doesn't belong to anymore, and has a negative connotation for him. We did see that Sanji was startled by Bege using the name, and commented that he thought he had left that part of his past behind him. He loathed Vito referring to him as part of Germa 66, after all, which as we know is the army led by the Vinsmoke Family. Sanji saying he hoped the Vinsmokes had changed wasn't the reason he agreed to go with the ship, he was literally under threat and always persisted in saying he would somehow get back to the Straw Hats and escape the marriage. If anything, his words meant he hoped they had become more reasonable and might actually pay attention to his own feelings this time around, him desparately trying to find some spark of hope in a devastating situation. At the end of the arc when Sanji is finally set free, he will break all remaining ties to the family, and effectively, the name will lose all meaning. Oda isn't going to suddenly start using it and introducing him as "Vinsmoke Sanji" under these circumstances, and thus this won't change in merchandising either, making just "Sanji" his official name in the franchise as a whole and the one we should use too. "Sanji" is what the character is trademarked as, what people will search for online. Adding "Vinsmoke" doesn't make any sense whatsoever and would only be confusing and misleading. I think the page is fine as it is, with the information about Vinsmoke being his birth name but "Black Leg" Sanji being his current pirate name that's actually in use. Chanpuruuu (talk) 00:01, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
Wow. You know you need to hit Enter key twice to start a new paragraph right? Anyway, the main thing you're missing is the fact that this is (relatively) new information and we include new information all the time regardless of what we knew till then. Look at the recent chapter (838) for example, we changed most of Cracker's page because we discovered his real appearance. Changes happens. Rhavkin (talk) 05:24, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
This discussion should be dismissed. No one uses Vinsmoke as of now except in-universe characters and this is relatively new information. Maybe if "Vinsmoke Sanji" is used in video games, merchandise, bounty, but ultimately, Sanji has to say his name is Vinsmoke Sanji but he does nor want to be affiliated with them. Same wituation with Ace because he does not want to be know as Gol D. Ace because of his father so he uses his mother name but sanji doesn't use his mother's name, just Sanji. Even though his name is Gol D. Ace, Oda, merchandise, etc. uses Portgas D. Ace Meshack (talk) 14:32, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
Are you serious? Any merchandise that will show him as "Vinsmoke Sanji", people will rightly say it's non-canon so that solve nothing. This discussion was paused for three mounts because the only thing missing was an in-universe character calling him "Vinsmoke Sanji". People keep adding one weak reason after the other to not to change his name. This is his name from birth. Yes, he said he didn't want anything to do with the family, but until he say something like "I'm not a Vinsmoke anymore" all of your points are speculation, and therefore (as for this wiki rules) , moot. Rhavkin (talk) 15:25, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
Can we wait for the arc to be over? That's the best option Meshack (talk) 15:38, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
I seriously don't gey why people can't understand that rejecting one's family is the same as rejecting one's name in this case. It's a simple concept whose comprehension would have ended this conversation as soon as it started.DancePowderer Talk 19:10, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
"This is his name from birth." Time to change Ace's page to Gol D. Ace and Franky's page to Cutty Flam. SeaTerror (talk) 20:45, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
ST, please stop bringing up other characters, Sanji's case is different. And for the I don't know how many times, Ace and Franky say they changed their name, Sanji didn't.
DancePowder, Please read the Arlong Park Arc where it says that blood doesn't make you a family, and that name doesn't equal family. you can share a name and not be a family, and you can share blood and not be a family, and you can have neither and be a family.
Meshack, the problem isn't the timing, I personally wouldn't mind waiting, but only if that's the only argument and not to simply start the discussion again then. If by the end of this arc Sanji doesn't say "Don't call me a Vinsmoke" then we change the name. Rhavkin (talk) 21:06, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I know family doesn't have to have blood ties, but in the case of the Vinsmokes, it does. It's a dynastic, patriarchal family and goes by blood ties and therefore have a family surname. I'm not talking about the families that aren't blood related, I'm talking about the Vinsmokes, who are. Not the Germa 66, the Vinsmokes. I'm talking about blood in relation to a specific family who works based on blood relations. Didn't think I had to clarify that considering they're the topic of conversation.DancePowderer Talk 21:11, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
You're the one who said to change it because of his birth name. SeaTerror (talk) 21:52, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
DancePowderer, the discussion is about Sanji, not the definition of family. So when you say name=family, and when Sanji said he doesn't want anything to do with the family, it doesn't mean he isn't part of it.
ST, what I meant was that is his last known name because saying he changed or discarded his name without him saying that himself is speculation. He was definitely called "Vinsmoke Sanji" this discussion is about his current name.Rhavkin (talk) 22:10, September 2, 2016 (UTC)
Literal translation:
- J: So you're saying that you'll throw away your family?!
- S: There's no way in hell that you all are my family!
Analysis: Though indirect, Sanji basically just confirmed that he cut family ties with the Vinsmokes.
Rough translation:
- Bubble 1: Hey... do you seriously believe that parents* have all these rights [over their kids]?
- Here, the word used for "parents" is 生みの親, which specifically means "biological parents".
Bubble 2: You know yourself that you never gave that kid* a single decent memory.
Here, he refers to his childhood self in third person as あいつ. In case you're wondering, never in my life have I heard a person do this when mentioning their past selves during a conversation.
- EDIT (Sorry, I previously read this one wrong)- Bubble 2: You* don't have a single decent memory with this guy [Judge], do you?.
- Bubble 3 & 4: You've*... had it pretty rough, huh?
- In bubbles 2-4, he speaks to his childhood self in second person by saying お前. Nobody does this when they're mentioning their past selves in conversation.
Analysis: Sanji is pretty careful with his word choice in these two panels. Firstly, he doesn't dare to call Judge a simple "parent" of his. He then begins talking about or speaking to his old self in second person. He speaks as if this kid from the flashback who referred to Judge as "Father" (Ch 833 p9) is some other boy who definitely isn't Sanji himself. You could say that Sanji sees little Vinsmoke Sanji as a stranger today.
I'm for keeping the article title Sanji. JapaneseOPfan :: Talk 01:26, September 3, 2016 (UTC)
Again, cutting ties with the family is one thing, discarding the name is another. Name doesn't mean family.
And as for the third person thing, [1]: "When participants recalled past awkwardness from a third-person perspective, they felt they had changed and were now more socially skilled," said Libby, the first author of the study. "That led them to behave more sociably and appear more socially skilled to the research assistant." Rhavkin (talk) 06:53, September 3, 2016 (UTC)
Sanji is trying to lose weight now? SeaTerror (talk) 07:18, September 3, 2016 (UTC)
Did you read just the firt line? Rhavkin (talk) 07:29, September 3, 2016 (UTC)
Names alone don't mean family, but surnames are family names. The moment Sanji threw away his family, he became mononymous. JapaneseOPfan :: Talk 18:04, September 3, 2016 (UTC)
For crying out loud. JUST POLL IT. There's no clear majority which is the perfect grounds for a poll. It doesn't really matter how worried you are about the outcome of said poll, JSD - you have the time to make it, you just don't want to. Wouldn't it be more productive to just vote on a name? This bickering gets nowhere. Those who want Sanji's name change won't budge and those who don't want it changed won't budge. (proven fact: considering they conveniently keep coming up with reasons for keeping the article as is when their previous inhibitions have been eased). --Mandon (talk) 01:44, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
Should we poll it? Meshack (talk) 01:44, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
lol poll away JapaneseOPfan :: Talk 02:01, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
Poll Discussion[]
I hoped I did it right. I tried to follow the guidelines. Rhavkin (talk) 10:14, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
Those polls are not for issues that actually matter, we use this poll template for forumsand talk page discussions.
Anyway, here's a proper test poll. Starts in three days. Discuss. Awaikage Talk 10:27, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to say where I stand but Vinsmoke is a major plot point Meshack (talk) 14:33, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
I'm surprised there is no "wait end of the saga" option, although that's pretty much postponing the issue. leviathan_89 17:31, 4 September, 2016 (UTC)
People in favor of waiting can just vote to keep the name as Sanji JapaneseOPfan :: Talk 17:32, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
I do think our adherence to this poll should be heavily contingent on what comes later in the arc, rather than just brushing over any new development contradicting our decision because of what this poll said. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:36, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
@Jopie: but then if something new comes up people would say "but we decided that on the poll". I suppose that's always true, but just pointing it out. leviathan_89 17:39, 4 September, 2016 (UTC)
As long as this is the end of Totto Land Arc. If people keep saying that the Vinsmokes might return in the future so it can be change then wait is meaningless.
If the poll say "Vinsmoke Sanji" and by the end of the arc Sanji say "I'm not a Vinsmoke" then we change it back. If the poll say "Sanji" and by the end of the arc Sanji say "I am a Vinsmoke" them we can change it then. If we put to "Wait" option then the poll would be pointless because we'll just do another one at the end of the arc. We have three days until it start, so if anyone can't wait to the end of the arc, say it now, otherwise we don't need the poll (for now). If no one has a problem with waiting then we wait. Rhavkin (talk) 17:55, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, wait option is unnecessary. If the poll result is contradicted by something that pops up later this arc, we'll just reopen the discussion, no big deal. Aurora[1] | Yes? 18:10, September 4, 2016 (UTC)
I know that the links are automatic when redirecting, but is the (possible) change is just the article name or also the galleries, appearances table and/or lists, and Disambiguation? Barto mafia family (talk) 11:19, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
Yes to galleries and disambiguation (though I think he only appears on the Vinsmoke (Disambiguation). As for appearances, only from Chapter 812 and corresponding (future) episode. Rhavkin (talk) 16:04, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
No changes have to made to the gallery. We don't add the surnames of others either. Aurora[1] | Yes? 16:11, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
What gallery doesn't have a character last name? Rhavkin (talk) 16:14, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
Robin, Zoro, Chopper. The only thing that will be changing is the name of the articles/sub-pages and the appearances in further chapters/episodes I guess. Aurora[1] | Yes? 16:18, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
I have no idea what your talking about. Rhavkin (talk) 16:43, September 5, 2016 (UTC)
Less then 24 hours to the poll, so let's sum up to those who get tired reading the discussion from the start:
For "Sanji":
- He initially introduced himself simply as "Sanji".
- He said that "he doesn't want anything to do with the Vinsmokes".
For "Vinsmoke Sanji"
- That is his given name.
- He was called that by several character in the manga.
- Everytime someone referred to him as a Vinsmoke, he didn't deny it.
- He said he came willingly to Totto Land in the hopes that his family improved their behavior.
- He never hid his connection, he just never said it.
- He didn't changed his name despite the obvious name pattern of the family.
- He nicknamed himself "Mr. Prince".
- He confirmed to be from North Blue nonchalantly.
- He changed his appearance after the timeskip that matches most of his sibling.
- He freaked about his bounty poster picture while other who wanted to keep their identities a secret (Nami about herself, Franky Family about Franky, Usopp and Sabo during Doflamongo's birdcage game) freaked about the bounty itself.
- The only two reasons the page hasn't changed until now was because no one referred to him as "Vinsmoke Sanji" and that we didn't know way he left, and both have been answered.
There are probably more reasons for each side, but I'm a bit bias, so add what I forgot. Rhavkin (talk) 16:09, September 6, 2016 (UTC)
Are you able to vote for both sides because I see both sides of the argument? I honestly only chose Sanji because I think we should wait but Rhavkin makes some good points Meshack (talk) 15:47, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
You can vote for both sides by not voting at all, I suppose Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:49, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
I'm in favor of waiting too, but the problem is that this discussion won't change even after the arc end because some people wait for Sanji to say "I am Sanji Vinsmoke" and won't accept any change until he does.
Regardless of the wiki rules, and no matter how many times in the past or to how many characters this argument has been applied to, full name (apparently) can only be decided by the character itrself. Rhavkin (talk) 16:09, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
Sanji is male. SeaTerror (talk) 19:51, September 8, 2016 (UTC)
Well that's sad. Rhavkin (talk) 14:31, September 14, 2016 (UTC)
Poll[]
 |
This was a poll regarding the name of this article.
|
Status: Closed
Sanji
Vinsmoke Sanji
| |
Post Poll Discussion[]
Result: Page stays as Sanji. Awaikage Talk 15:17, September 14, 2016 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. The majority have spoken and as we do things here the majority is in the right. That means no whining about it, person I'm looking at.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:39, September 14, 2016 (UTC)
I'm not one to argue with the desired result.DancePowderer Talk 08:06, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
Why is there even a post-poll discussion? A consensus was reached. Nobody's going to argue about the outcome. Also, let's not beat around the bush and be disingenuous, the purpose of this post and it's replies are pretty transparent. This is nothing more than an excuse to gloat about the outcome, which I find quite petty imho. --Mandon (talk) 16:53, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
And there's the whining.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:03, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps we should just add another line that says |Results: "insert pole result here" to the poll template as opposed to just making a subsection for it in the future. Just so we can avoid potential quarrels afterwards User:Roranoa Drake II/Sig1 17:11, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
Not whining, just stating facts about what you're doing SN. I actually don't care about the result as much as you'd think - I just hate it when people are disingenuous about their agendas. We both know why you and DP posted those responses the way you did. The poll discussion frustrated you, you're proud of your triumph - and you're rubbing in your perceived "victory" to the people that opposed you. So just be honest about it. :p --Mandon (talk) 15:58, September 19, 2016 (UTC)
- Who's SN?
- It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 16:30, September 19, 2016 (UTC)
You. Probably not the best acronym for Supernova but I digress. --Mandon (talk) 15:18, September 21, 2016 (UTC)