Chapter 843 Edit
Yeah, do we really have to have this discussion? Yes, we all know he is probably lying and doesn't agree with what he said. But the words came from Sanji's mouth, which is what everyone that was arguing against it before said we needed. As an encyclopedic entity, we MUST rename the page. Other language OP wikis have done it already, let's not continue to be stubborn and just factually incorrect. Talk | 13:26, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
He said it, it's his name. That was my main problem beforehand.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:29, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
99.99 with a tilde over it to indicate decimal repetion% sure he's lying. But that doesn't matter. Renaming time.
- Yeah, as long as we just keep links Sanji it'll be the same as with Law, no spoilers in the link itself.
- It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:35, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
Although my opinion didn't change (that we should rename the page Vinsmoke Sanji), I feel there isn't really any point in bumping the discussion every chapter. Let's just wait the end of the saga, or rather when Sanji gets back to his crew. If at that point he doesn't say anything about dropping his surname, then we should rename it. leviathan_89 13:36, 20 October, 2016 (UTC)
Well, it's not so much bumping it every chapter as bumping it now that Sanji himself has said "I'm Vinsmoke Sanji bitches" or words to that effect...
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:38, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
Not really. Most of the people who voted to keep it here wanted it this way until Sanji said otherwise, and he did (even if it's definitely a lie). No one has dissented to it yet either. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:39, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we need a poll if we get a clear majority here. Hopefully we can get that before the end of the day. Talk | 16:12, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
At the end of whether we like it or not (even Sanji himself) Vinsmoke is part of his birth name and should be included in his bio. Sure if this was real life then you could make a case because there a number of historical figures who have changed their names and have been recognized by it. But this is just a fictional series so need to get super complicated over it. Keep it simple folks :P Besides all we are doing is just delaying the inevitable... 16:43, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
Change it to Vinsmoke Sanji. 16:44, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
It's pretty cut and dry at this point. Unless you're going to make the argument that we should wait until he formally denounces the name, which is really silly and straw-grasping at this point --Mandon (talk) 16:49, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
- I'm neutral on whether or not the wiki should use "Sanji" or "Vinsmoke Sanji", but shouldn't the infobox (along with the Japanese name, Romanized name, etc) match the page name as well for consistency (Like with the infoboxes of Monkey D. Luffy and Roronoa Zoro)? 17:22, October 20, 2016 (UTC)
This will be a temp change.01:13, October 21, 2016 (UTC)
- Well, Sanji has just called himself "Sanji" for most of his life, dropping "Vinsmoke" out of his choie and his father's insistence. If not for this incident, Sanji woul just be "Sanji". I don't know if this is going to be droppe, but there is always the note of Franky and Portgas D. Ace to reference should the time come for change. Other then it being "spoilery" (LIKE THAT HAS STOPPED THIS WIKIA BEFORE >:-D ) I don't see a reason for voting aginst it even if it turn out to be relevant for a single chapter.
Odex voice actor Edit
This is about his second Odex voice actor. He does not have a Wikipedia page so the link should be removed. I tried to do it myself but I couldn't find out how to do it seeing that the Statistics box is separated from the article.
"Vinsmoke Sanji died at sea" Edit
Is it? In Jaimini's Box he says "the Vinsmoke Sanji who escaped from Germa died on the seas." Doesn't really indicate that he dropped his surname. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:00, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
Close enough. Move it back.17:16, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
Let's stop rushing to changing every title back and forth and back and forth and wait until it's all over.18:29, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
^This. It's better to wait until the arc is over so we're not moving it back and forth constantly. 19:21, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
I still don't see how that would change anything. It was no mystery his hate for his family which did not change at all during the saga and as many already said in the previous discussion has no relevance on his name. That statement is no different then when he said Jaji wasn't his father or he wasn't his son.
The phrase "the man you knew no longer exist", and it's different versions, usually mean that's he's a new man, not that he changed his name. Let's not get too literal. Rhavkin (talk) 19:24, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
Until the arc wraps up, I support keeping Vinsmoke Sanji 04:41, June 30, 2017 (UTC)
Klobis can share a more literal translation of that sentence, but I believe we are disagreeing on its meaning/importance. It doesn't seem to be a translation issue.
I agree with moving him back to just Sanji, but it's probably a good idea to leave it until the end of the arc in case Oda throws anything else at us.
His name is vinsmoke sanji oda hardly gives any one last names lets.just keep it
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 10:45, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
Volume 86 Info Edit
It looks like we finally have confirmation on Sanji's name. The character introductions in Volume 86 listed Vinsmoke Sanji as dead and Sanji as a member of the Straw Hats. 17:38, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
Time to change it back to just Sanji then 17:41, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
It's not like we're gonna make a separate page for "Vinsmoke Sanji", its still the same character. A couple volumes ago Pound, Lola, and Chiffon was listed as members of the Big Mom Pirates so that page isn't that credible. I don't see what this new information changed. Rhavkin (talk) 18:43, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
I just checked the previous volumes (80-85), and Sanji was always listed like that, as Sanji, the only noticeable difference is that it's "faded out" for the volumes when he is still with Germa. So there is no new information to begin with. I also believe that nowhere there it's stated that "Vinsmoke Sanji" is dead, since the text looks like a copypasta for all volumes to me. So that sentence too is probably that twitter guy's conclusion.
Well given that Pound, Lola and Chiffon are part of the Charlotte Family it stands to reason that the Big Mom Pirates for better or worst are the Charlotte Family.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:38, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
@To love this: It's called renouncing your family name. @auroa|yes : sanij is a vinsmoke by blood it makes no since as him being listed as a former vinsmoke To love this (talk) 06:43, February 28, 2018 (UTC)
Let's wait until after the arc officially ends for any change. It's not just a small simple name change we're discussing.14:22, September 17, 2017 (UTC)
So are we going to change it back?08:49, January 15, 2018 (UTC)
This is no new information (it's been like that for a few volumes and nowhere it's stated that "Vinsmoke Sanji" is dead, that's the Twitter guy conclusion. So the situation is exactly like before, whatever you were in favore or against the name change. As I said multiple times, no matter the hatred/love in the family, little has to do with Sanji's own name... and even on that front, didn't he rescued is family anyway? So even that argument is a bit weak imo. A poll will eventually be necessary anyway.
A reunion between Germa and Sanji seems inevitable before the arc is over, so I think it's better to wait for the final resolution before discussing this further. Awaikage Talk 18:27, January 15, 2018 (UTC)
why is Sanji affiliation with the vinsmoke family being listed as former he is a blood member of the family he can be considered former germa 66 member since they are an organization but he cannot be considered a former member of his own blood family To love this (talk) 00:49, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
You can choose to no longer be part of your family. Oda has demonstrated that a family group is not dependent on blood ties; he showed that with Ace. Judge also does not consider Sanji to be his son. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:23, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
wait what do u mean when has oda sbown that judge can keep deniaing sanji is his son all he wamt but sanji is a vinamoke by blood ichiji niji yonji and reuju are his sibilings no matter what and sora his mom no matter what and makes zero since that he listed as a formee vinsmoke i mean if weis his him as a former member doesnt mean we have to take his last name away again and if we stick to this doesnt then shoulndt chiffon and lola be former To love this (talk) 13:51, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
If were going to stick to rule that blood relative family ex vinsmoke family and sanji members can be listed as former then can lola and chiffon nd pez be listed as former memers of charollte family and remove doniquxote corazon from his family since doflamngo kicked him out To love this (talk) 21:31, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
Chiffon and Lola, while their family holds an antagonistic view of them, have never been stated to be disowned, and both consider Big Mom to be their mother. Rosinante's case is a bit more complex because Doflamingo did disown him but Doflamingo doesn't have a position of authority in the family like Judge and Big Mom do, and Rosinante has not forsaken his bloodline as a whole. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:00, February 27, 2018 (UTC)
Wait didnt big mama say lola has no connection to there family any more? And since his father and mother were dead and he is oldest wouldnt doffy be head of his family and be allowed to kick out his brother from family
And again if sanji listed under former when it comes to his blood famliy then shouldnt we remove vinsmoke from his last name on his page becuase its confuseing
Yeah, to my knowledge, it was agreed to ditch the V once the arc ends. There's no twist coming our way that will clarify that he is, in fact, a Vinsmoke. Let's just bury this horse already. 03:47, April 21, 2018 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure him declaring that Vinsmoke Sanji is dead, forcing Judge to admit he isn't his son, implying Zeff is his real father, and not regretting any of that counts as renouncing his birth name? (Pingo1387 (talk) 05:49, April 21, 2018 (UTC))
Sanji's full name was reveal to world and his new bounty is show as Vinsmoke Sanji so that wraps it up and can no longer hide the fact that he was once part of the Vinsmoke Family just as expect Cdswalkthrough (talk) 14:44, April 28, 2018 (UTC)CdswalkthroughCdswalkthrough (talk) 14:44, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
He literally rejected it in this chapter, going as far as to say "don't ever say Germa or Vinsmoke in front of me again". If you wanted clarification that he denounces the name ala Cutty Flam and Gol D Ace, there it is. And hey, like a wanted poster is a source for factual information in the first place. Chopper's a pet and Usopp's a god. In this very chapter, the newspapers published that Luffy commanded the Firetanks and Germa, destroyed Big Mom's castle, and won against her. We are fully aware that Morgans reported misinformation, including Sanji being a Vinsmoke. But we the readers know what really happened. Drop the V. 15:52, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
I really like the last name a lot since its really cool sounding and it fits him since he smokes a lot but Sanji hates it and doesn't want it and we don't call Franky "Cutty Flam" or Lola "Charlotte Lola" (despite that Lola still thinks of herself as a member of her family). So it only makes sense for us to respect Sanji's character and have his last name be removed. Unless of course everyone would rather wait and see if Sanji ever decides to officially put on the Raid Suit or meet up with Germa again. --SpikeDragonLord (talk) 16:00, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
He said he didn't want to hear those words, not that he is not part of the family. We've seen that he will go into dangerous situations to save them so he does still consider them family, just bastards (except Reiju). Rhavkin (talk) 16:05, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, he clearly hates his surname and didn't want the World Government to call him that. And Judge even disowned him so there's nothing really tying him to that name other than what Morgans led everyone to believe. --SpikeDragonLord (talk) 16:10, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
And with regards to him going into dangerous situations to save the Vinsmokes, he never said he considers them his family, just that he didn't want them to die. Like Luffy said, that's just who he is - he wants to save as many people as he can. Plus, with the bounty poster thing, everyone on the crew knows that Zoro doesn't consider himself a bounty hunter, but that's what the Marines called him anyway (even if it wasn't actually on the poster). Like the others above me said, we don't call Franky's wiki page "Cutty Flam" or Ace's "Gol D. Ace," but the names are mentioned in their biography, so it's probably best to do the same for Sanji. Title his page "Sanji," and add "Vinsmoke Sanji" to his epithets. Pingo1387 (talk) 17:56, April 28, 2018 (UTC)pingo1387
This situation is different from Franky or Ace Franky change his name under Iceburg's advice and Ace change his surname to his mother because he hate Roger but hold some respect for Roger I think it unnesscery to set Vinsmoke Sanji as a Epithet and Sanji can't do anything about even he discard itCdswalkthrough (talk) 19:37, April 28, 2018 (UTC)cdswalkthroughCdswalkthrough (talk) 19:37, April 28, 2018 (UTC)
We need to move it back to Sanji. He threw Vinsmoke away. We can keep it in his intro paragraph, but that's it.04:53, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
To be clear, "Vinsmoke Sanji" is what the government considers his name to be, not an epithet. So it would be indicated as such in his article. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:15, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
No I disagreed changing back to Sanji as King Kaido stated the goverment consider Vinsmoke Sanji his name and wouldn't matter as long as the world knows that Sanji was from the Vinsmoke Family Cdswalkthrough (talk) 08:59, April 29, 2018 (UTC)CdswalkthroughCdswalkthrough (talk) 08:59, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
I don't get it. At first it was "Don't rename it because only Cracker called him that" and now is "rename it despite only Sanji saying it". Every one keep comparing it to Ace and Franky so lets:
- Ace was born Gol D. Ace, was called Gol. D Ace by Sengoku, has a bounty under the name Portgas D. Ace = His page is called Portgas D. Ace.
- Franky was born Cutty Flam, was called Cutty Flam by Spandam, has a bounty under the name Franky = His page is called Franky.
- Sanji was born Vinsmoke Sanji, was called Vinsmoke Sanji by Cracker (among others), has a bounty under the name Vinsmoke Sanji = And you're saying his page should be called simply Sanji?
I don't think it should change it back to Sanji for Reason like that and apparently Vinsmoke Sanji is his full name and the entire world know it and I think it should be leave as is
Rhavkin, I really don't understand your point here. You listed three times in which a character was born with a name, an antagonist used that name, and the character themself rejects it. Ignoring the bounty listing, you've given very good evidence for why we should drop the V. Now factoring in the bounty thing, Usopp's bounty has been listed once under Sogeking and now under God Usopp, both of which he's been called but neither of which are his name. So, as if that has anything to do with what we call the article. 16:43, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
the point is that Vinsmoke Sanji is full name and Sanji can't do anything about it since the entired world knows and Usopp case is a different matter Sogeking was Alter ego idenity he adopted during the Enies Lobby Arc and he was a mask at the time Cdswalkthrough (talk) 17:01, April 29, 2018 (UTC)CdswalkthroughCdswalkthrough (talk) 17:01, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
First of all, I omitted the character rejecting the name because how a character call itself isn't relevant (i.e. all the characters who called themselves the greatest, or kings, or only, or true...). Second, a page should be name after the official name. That has been established multiple times on most pages and their talk pages. Sanji in particular has stated that he is a Vinsmoke (c.843), that the Vinsmokes are his family, and that he care for them despite everything (c.856). Yes, he told Judge to not consider him his son nor that he consider judge his father (c.870), but that was because judge tried to use the connection for his own goals (c.833). He claimed in c.903 that he didn't want to hear Germa or Vinsmoke, but does anyone really think that if they were in danger again and he could do something he wouldn't? Rhavkin (talk) 17:03, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
Quick reminder that this is the same World Government that ended up drawing Duval on Sanji's first wanted poster. Just because they recognize him one way doesn't mean that's what he really is. He is an adult and has sole jurisdiction of his name, even if other people might call him something different. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:25, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
Depending on where you started counting, and given the fact that some people only commented once last week (before the wanted poster), I think giving it a bit more time and\or poll it again would be fair. Rhavkin (talk) 18:07, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
While I'm for the name change, the moment he puts on his raid suit he, like me, will have mixed feelings about the name thing as well. While were here can someone explain how to make a poll?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 18:12, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
I also disagree on changing it I don't think we should change Vinsmoke Sanji to Sanji base on Sanji sole jurisdisction of his own name in my option Vinsmoke is his surname and his bounty poster showing his full name basing on what information the world goverment knowns and the drawing of Sanji on his first Bounty Poster was alternative choice due to photographer failing getting a picture of Sanji
I counted everyone under this discussion header except Rgilbert who didn't make his opinion clear. So now with him and Frayten, it's 11 vs 3. And there's no one who only commented before the latest chapter. Awaikage Talk 18:53, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
I also disagree with change it back to Sanji
I meant before the new chapter I was for the name change but after Sanji's suit appeared and if he has a change of heart when he put's it on who knows how this discussion will play out.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:28, April 29, 2018 (UTC)
I think that if we change it based on what a character call itself, there is no difference from adding the "Self Proclaimed Straw Hat Grand Fleet" to the Straw Hats' template under subordinates (along with Zeus if were at it) and refer to Sanji as a slave (he is an adult...) Rhavkin (talk) 06:55, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
Well that's another can of worms, isn't it? The Grand Fleet are subordinates to the Straw Hats but the Straw Hats aren't the, eh... super-ordinates? to the Grand Fleet. It's an in-series acknowledged 1-sided relationship. All in all, it's too messy of a situation to be used as a clear analogy here.
Then the next thing you said, Sanji as a slave. Wholey different situation. Like how "Captain" is a role in a pirate crew and a rank in marines, but they aren't equivalent to each other. Sanji and Zeus are calling themselves slaves, but in context, they mean servants. When Nami said "be my slave", she didn't mean she wanted to put an exploding collar on him and auction him off to a Noble.
But I'll ignore your examples and address your point head-on. We can't really trust a character's self-proclaimed status, can we? Well it depends. There are cases in which characters are lying or delusional. Edward Weevil, for instance. Presumably. But a name is something different. "Mr. Prince" was a lie. "Corazon" is a code-name. "Franky" is neither. It's a name-change. It's something you have complete authority to do over yourself. And that's what's happening here. And anyway, who's ready for a vote? Numbers don't lie. 15:21, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
Naming pages based on what characters consider their name is how we do it. As written in the Page Naming Guidelines. Non-naming related issues and gags are irrelevant. If we titled pages based on wanted posters, we would need to drop "Tony Tony" from Chopper's page title, "D. Water" from Law's, and rename Usopp to "God Usopp". Awaikage Talk 15:34, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
If we're saying that a character declaration is a fact, then the SHGF as subordinates, Sanji as slave (or servant, whatever, the same as Zeus to Nami but with a higher ranking), and yes, Weevil as Whitebeard's son should also be consider equally change worthy.
And if you do claim that a character declaration is a fact, whose to decide what declaration is change worthy? Sanji claimed to not wanting to hear the name, not that he is not part of the family. His actions at the second half of WCI showed that he does consider them a family. A mostly abusive, cruel, and neglectful family, but a family nonetheless.
And there is no difference between naming (a page\character) and the information on it. The guide talks about naming based on official sources and does not mention anything about self proclaimed names. Rhavkin (talk) 15:41, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
"Character declaration is a fact" is not the argument at all, so your analogies are pointless. This is just about characters changing or discarding their names. Which they can do. Like Ace, Franky and now Sanji.
On the last page of 856 Sanji explicitly states he doesn't consider them family despite wanting to save them. Later he states "Vinsmoke Sanji died on the seas" and makes Judge admit that he's not his father. Now he says never to mention "Vinsmoke" again. His stance is clear.
The entire arc he said "they're not my family" and the next "they are" and then back to "they're not", that's Just Sanji being ashamed of his connection to them. Since this whole multi-part discussion has began, it stood only on "We shouldn't rename it until he says he is a Vinsmoke" and "we shouldn't change it back until he says he is not a Vinsmoke". Not wanting to hear the name doesn't mean that it is not his.
Ace case resolve around changing his family name, not discarding it, and Franky was to hide from the WG. There is no precedent to this, only similarities. Even the quote you use says "in favor".
The majority disagrees with your interpretation so there's no use prolonging this any longer. Same points are just being repeated. Majority decision is to rename the page to Sanji. Awaikage Talk 18:08, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
This a complete abuse of power! The discussion is still on going and other then you, Ryo and Kaido no one objected since I made my arguments. Those 11 people you counted earlier might have changed their minds during the discussion. Roll-back your edits until this is over. Rhavkin (talk) 18:24, April 30, 2018 (UTC)
The People who voted for the change are simply blind they should take at the fact more clearly including Awaikage and he shouldn't decide it over just because he believe it pointless to discuss further due to majority vote if Sanji does put on the raid suit just as Rgilbert27 said or if he is refer as Vinsmoke Sanji in the introduction of characters in the manga volumes or if other decide to change their votes it should be changed back to Vinsmoke Sanji
- Also, Sanji putting on the Raid Suit is not grounds in itself to rename the page again. He can do that without re-donning his family name. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:45, May 1, 2018 (UTC)
I'm not just talking about if/when he puts on the suit I'm talking about what will go through his mind just before/during when he puts on the suit. It may be just a guess but the name change come up soon if not sooner than later.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 03:20, May 1, 2018 (UTC)
It's not "crying over spilled milk". It's about Awaikaga deciding to end an ongoing discussion before it is resolved. I was told multiple times about how a discussion needs more then a few days to be over, and Awaikaga should have commented that "If there aren't any new arguments, then I'm making the change" beforehand, and give time for those who were against the change to come up with new one. Not to mention the hypocrisy where the "change it" side argument was only based on "Sanji said it", so if any, that side had repeated points.
And for majority and vote rights, there has been many, if not all, polls in which user hasn't commented on the talk page yet voted so that shouldn't be an issue. We had a poll at the beginning of this arc, so why not do on now? After a fair vote, then it would by "spilled milk". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhavkin (talk • contribs) 05:11, May 1, 2018 (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
By repeated points I was referring to both sides. It comes down to a difference in intepretation. And we can speculate all we want as to what Sanji will decide in the future, but the current decision should be made with current information, not speculation. If the issue needs to be rediscussed yet again in the future, then we will.
As SeaTerror said there doesn't seem to be any point in a poll and even Cdswalkthrough said it's a bad idea. We did indeed have a poll at the beginning of the arc, but then the decision to rename to Vinsmoke Sanji was made without one. Because there was a majority decision in light of new information. And making bad edits out of spite is not a good way to get your point across. Awaikage Talk 08:35, May 1, 2018 (UTC)
ST, what are you trying to say?
I am a bit late for the discussion, although in light of all the fact presented and the existing guidelines, it is obvious that "Sanji" should be the name of the page. I believe that there are not sufficiently convincing argumentsas to why it should be "Vinsmoke Sanji". The same way as we should respect other people who non-comically and non-delusionally wish to change their name, we should respect these characters.